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Basic Craft Recipe Suggestion Box

Discussion in 'News and Information' started by Trelior, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    I am currently in the process of restructuring the basic craft system in tandem with Cykros.

    As you may already know, we have numerous empty slots in the recipe list. I am drawing blanks on items that should be added. I am also removing some now-defunct items.

    Changes I have already decided on:
    -Bike kits (upgrade, force)
    -Fix the cores that exist (adjust them to our existing tiers)
    -Add Superior and Safeguard (Not Enhancer as part of my change to Perfect Core craft)
    -Adjust the core recipes to deter market flooding
    -Adjust material requirements for Epaulet of Proof, mostly to reflect our in-use quartz tiers and add difficulty to the craft. Basic craft will be useful, and should reflect as such

    I have 24 empty slots right now to fill, and would like suggestions on what you guys would like to see added.

    Levels with empty slots, and slots open per level

    1: 1
    2: 1
    3: 7
    4: 7
    5: 6
    8: 2

    Thanks!

    Some recipes are changing levels to accommodate new recipes I'm adding that I feel belong on the same level.

    I could really use the help, I don't want any empty recipe slots.
     
    #1 Trelior, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  2. Cykros

    Cykros Administrator
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    Thread sticked.
     
  3. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    My suggestion is materials needed for crafting, like Material Cores, Quartz Cores. Craft doesn't have to give great results (so main source of materials will remain destroying items), but it would be nice to have it as an alternative.

    Example: Craft 100x material core (sigmetal) into 20x material core (mithril). You can follow same formula for all the material cores available. It will make currently worthless materials useful and it will be a nice alternative in gaining needed materials.
     
  4. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    Assuming Cykros leaves the ability to buy Redosmium cores on the alchemists, I could work with that. It's gonna take some shuffling around, because I dfon't want to amass all of the conversions onto the same level.

    How does this sound:
    3 Sigmetal
    4 Mithril
    5 Archidrium
    6 Drei/Lycanis
    7 Palladium
    8 Demonite

    Two recipes per level, one for material core, one for quartz core.

    I also noticed that Astral Core (Palladium) exists, do any other tiers of Astral Core exist? Because I can add recipes for those similar to Mithril and Limitless Astrals (20 material and 20 quartz to make one astral).

    If I do that, then that fills a good chunk of the empty slots.

    100 of the lower core to make 5 of the new tier makes sense, and will be kept down the line, with an honor cost. The reason being: with the aforementioned Redosmium still being buyable, I want to have a deterrent on flooding the market with crafted high-end materials. We have a player economy to worry about, after all.

    The same logic is being applied to the cores since pieces are buyable. I increased the materials needed to move up the ranks, and incurred a steeper honor cost.

    I may need to further adjust the material cost for Epaulet of Proof since I made a change to make them cost relevant quzartz cores.

    Looking over the changes I made, I actually suggested we add Sigmetal cores be added. I will redact that and suggest we retain Redosmium/topaz for the crafting up the chain.

    This post was made stream-of-consciousness, so my thoughts are all over the place. Sorry.

    EDIT: Checked the market board, it appears only Palladium and Demonite astrals exist. If the others are necessary, pending feedback, I can add them before submitting the finalized spreadsheet to Cykros.
     
    #4 Trelior, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  5. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    Just did some napkin math on the cost of crafting Demonite cores, starting from Red Osmium bought from the alchemist.

    If I did 100 cores to make 5 of the next tier up, the price alone from the bottom is steep enough.

    It costs 6000 alz per Red Odmium/Topaz, translating to 600k to make 5 Sigmetal cores. It would take 19 more crafts (assuming no failures) to make enough Sigmetal to make 5 Mithril cores, coming to 12m.

    I suppose, by that point, you would rather start using desynthesis to get your Mithiril (or higher) cores to continue climbing.

    Exponential cost would make this prohibitively expensive starting from the bottom. Unless my math is wrong, I'm calculating it to be in the neighborhood of 2b to make the ending craft of 5 Demonite cores; assuming you're not using any outside materials, and never failing at any point along the way.

    I know I want there to be an honor cost to this craft because cores are easy enough to find through desynthesis. Although, I don't know if I want to make it steep or not, since I know the primary desire for this is for quartz, due to how proportionately rare its source gear is.

    Orbs and crystals are the only source of quartz in a pool of drops of helmets, suits, gloves, boots, and four types of sword to get the material.

    Fishing for opinions to maybe cut the material cost in half for the same output, but incur an honor cost that doubles each rank, but is also different from quartz to metal.

    I'm thinking:
    Material
    50 Redosmium and 1000 honor -> 5 Sigmetal
    50 SigMetal and 2000 honor -> 5 Mithril
    50 Mithril and 4000 honor -> 5 Archridium
    And so on, to make Demonite cost 32k per craft material

    Quartz
    50 Topaz and 1500 honor -> 5 Sigmetal
    50 Sigmetal and 3000 honor -> 5 Mithril
    50 Mithril and 6000 honor -> 5 Archridium
    following into 48k per Demonite quartz craft

    Part of me feels this works, but another part of me feels the numbers are a bit too high.

    Perhaps Cykros can help me suss the numbers out, because everything just seems a bit weird.

    On one hand, the numbers work to penalize those who want to take the "easy" way to the top and reward those who started a few rungs up.

    If I reduce the numbers, I feel it would allow too much freedom and would cause a saturation.
     
  6. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    Here are few of my advices:

    - Cut out Redosmium -> Sigmetal material core crafting. When I made proposal I didn't realize that you could buy red osmium at NPC. Let's not make it abusable, I didn't mean to create easy way in getting materials.

    - Cut out honor requirements. With these low rates (which are okay for ''alternative in gaining material cores'') the honor requirement will make whole craft useless. Nobody is going to do it. The rates themselves should maintain system to not too profitable.

    - Ratio 10:1 from 1 point of view seems low and from the other it seems high. Maybe at higher levels squeeze in Raw Stone of Dimension to up the cost of craft. It's on staff team to do all the math on how it is supposed to be, I won't do it because I'll probably spend 5hrs thinking about it and then it's not gonna get implemented :p
     
  7. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    I can agree to removal of Redosmium and Sig mats.

    I'll cede to reducing the costs, but not removal. Professional craft has an honor cost to it, not having it on Basic craft for the big ticket items seems silly. A slot extender or converted material should have a cost associated to it. An HP or buff potion shouldn't, and that's how it is.

    I can adjust the conversion ratios on the cores, I'll talk to the other guys on staff for their opinions. 20:1 seemed a bit excessive to me, but if 10:1 is too low, I'll adjust. We'll have to test.

    Thank you for the feedback!
     
    #7 Trelior, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  8. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    Firstly,
    I only meant to take out the recipe that crafts Redosmium into Sigmetal. This way you can't use materials sold by npc to craft further. I don't see any reason to take out Sigmetal into Mithril tho :eek: You can't abuse it or am I wrong?

    Secondly,
    There is currently no honor requirement for basic craft and do you think something is wrong with that? I don't.
    To me it seems like you are complicating it too much. It feels like you are trying to make Basic Craft really useful and required to use. I think it's a mistake. You should not force players to craft. In my opinion basic craft should be easier with lower rewards and used as an alternative way of getting stuff.
    Once you complicate it with honor and other things, if at some point there is an update that changes the amount of Honor gained during war, it will highly impact the Basic Craft. So then you will have unbalanced trash Basic Craft system..... Try to not make it depended on too many resources, since it complicates the updates.

    EDIT: I guess you edited your post and removed the majority of previous msg.

    I don't consider Material Cores with bad rate a ''big item''. The ratio itself is non profitable. If you think people should loose less value, add some alz cost to the craft (or Raw Stone of Dimension which can be bought for alz from npc).

    About Professional craft, I already dislike the huge honor cost for it. Imagine someone leveling up from Craft lv1 to Craft lv7 and trying to work on HR aswell. Note that at lower HR, wexp gives you less Honor Points. Honor cost on Professional crafting is unreasonably high. Thank god my craft progress is not on my main char.
     
    #8 Slag, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  9. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    Sigmetal cores are unobtainable because it's no longer desynthable. If there's not making the cores, there's no need to be able to convert them up.

    There are honor requirements on a fair few items in basic craft, Look at the core and extender recipes. Those costs are negligible due to how honor is earned in vanilla. Retaining those costs and adjusting them to fit our inflated honor gaining system fits.

    Technically, professional craft isn't necessary either, by your logic. The idea isn't to make it required, merely an option. And if the option is there to create powerful items, who's to say that someone isn't going to take the abusable crafts (like the cores) and destroy the market by mass producing them? It's a system of checks and balances.
     
  10. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    What do desynthable & ''earned in vanilla'' mean?
     
  11. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    Item Extraction and official server.

    You can't extract Sigmetal armor or weapons anymore, the recent overhaul to that system made that change.

    Official servers have ridiculously tiny costs associated with crafting the items that required honor. 5 for Epaulet of Proof, and doubling with each iteration. 20 honor for a core crystal. 80 for a slot extender.

    Considering how we're working with Potions of Honor that (albeit rare as they are) can grant up to two million honor in a single shot, adjusting these costs to be a factor of 100 larger (500 for EoP, ending at 64k for EoP+7, for example) is not deterrent enough for someone to throw up their hands and say it isn't worth it.

    This isn't any different than crafting in any other MMO. It's not for everyone, it's meant to be a revenue source for the people who wish to put the time and effort into it. The items aren't going to be removed from the drop tables just because they're craftable.
     
    #11 Trelior, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  12. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    ''Those costs are ngligible due to how honor is earned in vanilla (official server?)''. Sorry I don't understand what you wanted to say with that. What do official server and honor requirements for private server craft have in common -.-

    Techincally professional craft is kind of necessary here, since other options to get items were removed. I highly disagree with that too, but that's the topic for another day.

    Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. I shared how I feel about it, now it's up to you if you want to implement it and how good (or bad) you will do it.
    Good luck!
     
  13. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    What is so hard to understand that official servers have honor growth that is tiny compared to our server's honor growth. When I was actively playing official North America on Mercury (before EST ripped it pout of the hands of the people who were running it amicably), the Potion of Honor (300k) was the high end of what you could earn from TG. Here, that 300k potion is laughable. The only other way to get honor was at the trickle of killing mobs on a War map (Lakeside and higher) with Colony Graduate as your effect title (Honor kills +3) and hard capped your honor growth of each level at 60%, forcing the TG route to finish ranking up. So that 80 honor to make a slot extender, which let's be real, you won't be doing on an official server, is a big deal.

    As for your argument about Pro craft: Is everyone on the server doing it? No. I don't expect everyone to do Basic craft. It's an option, not a mandate.
     
  14. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    Why do you Edit your previous post instead of replying to my newer post, again? Want to make me look bad when people read? Pls stop, I wouldn't expect that from anyone. Especially not from a GM.

    Regarding Official, there is no honor requirement for Basic Craft at all. Idk when was the last time you checked it out, but currently whole "basic craft" is accessible by going to Craft NPC Chloe and there is no honor requirement. It is also way easier to gain Honor and atm Honor is kinda useless. Many people are sitting on 500k+ and not even selling it cuz it's cheap (until new stuff that requires honor is releases).
    However there is no need to compare official to private server because too many things are different.

    Edit: many people are sitting on 500k+ wexp that is the main source of honor for a short while, since then you dont nees honor at all anymore*
     
  15. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    I have a tendency to hit edit to make a small change, then forget I'm editing and keep making points.

    A bit of an artifact of not being used to forums with activity since forums tend to be a dead communication avenue these days.

    So when I'm making a revision that takes ten minutes to make, I'm not expecting to have gotten a response and don't want to have a double post.

    It's more of "no double posting" courtesy rather than trying to renege a statement.

    As far as the "no honor cost on Basic on Official" considering how my region's Official server is almost entirely unplayable between a 750ms ping and connection instability. Even on my better connection in my old apartment, I was getting an unplayable latency and connection unreliability.

    I'm going to need some proof that absolutely no crafts require honor on current Official. I'm basing my honor costs off of what I'm seeing in game as of the basis of our server and making adjustments. If the WExp is as inflated as you say, then who cares if there's an honor cost in the first place? It's a barrier to entry. I'm saying that as a newbie to the server with Rank 12 honor on my highest leveled character.

    Besides, the honor costs I'm invoking are less of a barrier to entry than professional craft is.

    1.5b to buy the license shape cartridge and a Perfect Core (Ultimate) just to get into Mithril craft, and 350k honor for the low end of Mithril craft (basing off Armorset Helm of Bloodsucking), up to 7.2m honor for CDI/CDI/ASA Demonite. An Upgrade Core (Ultimate) costing 250k honor is not worth this kind of reaction. If it's about the material cores having a cost, what difference does it make if you're spending a million honor turning the unfeasible millions of Mithril cores (obviously much less if you're working from higher grade cores) into the 90 Demonite to make a helmet and buying those cores from another player for 150m alz apiece? Sounds like you're being needlessly petty to me.

    EDIT: And I'm talking honor receipts for things that aren't potions. Those deliberately don't have an honor cost. I'm talking the items that do. Epaulet of Proof, Cores, extenders. I know those recipes exist and have costs.
     
  16. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    Here is screenshot of my account on official. Note that Fee (alz or chloe token) is like a replacement for getting a Formula Card no. X.
    [​IMG]


    Professional crafting honor requirement is crazy as fk.
    But in Basic craft we are talking about small items.
    You plan to make 1x Upgrade Core Ultimate cost 250k honor + other required items? Do you realize how many cores people need to upgrade set and what's the average price for core?

    Here is a table of WExp to Honor Points exchange table https://forum.olympusgn.com/attachments/honor-exchange-table-march-2019-png.6660/
    Do you realize the cost of making 100x Upgrade Core Ultimate? 25m honor points? If you are HR 24, that is equivalent to 3.85k WExp. If you are HR 10, that is equivalent 27k WExp. Not to mention other required items. Do you see my point? It's too damn hard to rely on Honor Points. This way new players have no way of using Basic Craft. Maybe even old players won't use it because it will cost too much.

    You got other options. Either add cost with alz, add / increase other required items or simply adjust success / fail chance.

    If you need any more info regarding official let me know.
    Other than that I'm out of this conversation.

    Good luck with Basic Craft system. Looking forward to see how it turns out.
     
  17. Slag

    Slag Senior Member
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    Think about BIG PICTURE. Think about all the posibile consequences your changes will cause and how that will impact players.
    I'm not against increasing a cost or making ratio really low. But it is horrible to add Honor Points in there. There are better and friendlier ways to new players to increase the cost.

    You are new here, my personal opinion is that you are not suitable for GM position, because you don't have enough knowledge about this server and your knowledge of official server is certainly outdated (yes it is important to have knowledge of official server if you want to move in the same direction).

    Thumbs up for caring about this server and working on improving it tho.

    Good luck!
     
  18. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    Having now seen the screenshot you posted, I can see how that is a superior system, however, the last time I looked at the craft on my region's official, formula cards still existed. Despite how frankly unplayable the game is on my official server, I am in the process of installing it to pick up the transmuter on my BL 100 (That's all the higher I could get before the connection issues started becoming lock-down level impediment).

    It's actually quite interesting seeing how much the game has changed since I've been away from it. Removing the formula cards actually seems like a far better system.

    EDIT: Talking to the other staffers, we're stuck on the old Basic system since we have no access to the Ep9 files. Looking into rebalancing the changes I made regardless.
     
    #18 Trelior, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  19. Trelior

    Trelior Newbie Member
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    When I said the UCU costs 250k honor to create, I should have mentioned that's from making it from scratch, from core pieces. Not going into any more detail than that because it needs to go through some vetting.
     

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